Comments for Baseball Bloggers Alliance Awards: Cy Young at http://www.wezen-ball.com , comment 1 to 9 out of 9 comments http://www.wezen-ball.com Sat, 11 Feb 2012 15:11:41 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.wezen-ball.com/2009-articles/october/baseball-bloggers-alliance-awards-cy-young.html#comment-146 You know, I don't think I know what I'd put if I were to vote today. I might still go with Vazquez and Haren, but I could also see myself choosing Carpenter. It's hard to say... it depends on how analytical my mind feels that day, I think. It's like the showdown between the Dread Pirate Roberts and Vizzini - exactly how many rounds of logic will I let myself go before making a decision... - lar @ wezen-ball Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:09:50 +0100 http://www.wezen-ball.com/2009-articles/october/baseball-bloggers-alliance-awards-cy-young.html#comment-144 Apparently Keith Law agrees with you that Vazquez was the 2nd best pitcher in the NL this year. I still think that's absolutely ridiculous. There's a great debate over on BBTF about it, too. - heyblue Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:43:46 +0100 http://www.wezen-ball.com/2009-articles/october/baseball-bloggers-alliance-awards-cy-young.html#comment-99 I disagree and I think FIP is severely flawed with regard to extreme Ground Ball pitchers like Carpenter. Any ball in play is treated the same in FIP. Vazquez's BIP are likely a lot of line drives, Carpenter's are likely a lot of weak grounders. Very different types of balls in play, and the results are reflected in the number of runs that end up getting scored. Carpenter had a better year than Vazquez, and it's not close. - heyblue Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:59:48 +0100 http://www.wezen-ball.com/2009-articles/october/baseball-bloggers-alliance-awards-cy-young.html#comment-98 Very true, and I like ERA+ very much. My only counter is that, though you say "the starting pitcher's job is to keep the opposing team from scoring runs", it should actually read "the starting pitcher's job is to work in conjunction with his defense to keep the opposing team from scoring runs." As I'm sure you know, a pitcher can only control so much of an at-bat - once that ball is put in play, it's up to his defense to make it right. FIP tries to account for this by giving us the pitcher's ERA independent of the defense. The pitcher only has complete control of an at-bat if it results in a strikeout, walk, or home run, and that's what FIP measures. In that regard, Carpenter and Vazquez are perfectly even. Haren's a little behind, I admit. Now maybe I dove into the advanced stats a little too much on this one (and maybe I did let a little too much subjectivity into the Haren pick), but it wasn't because I was trying to get too fancy or anything. As Ron said above, sometimes you have to "tell the statistics to shut up and actually look at who was the best". When I do that, I see Carpenter, Haren, and Vazquez all having almost-identically excellent years - and it's nice to see that most of the advanced stats agree. That's my reasoning, for what it's worth... - lar @ wezen-ball Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:09:07 +0100 http://www.wezen-ball.com/2009-articles/october/baseball-bloggers-alliance-awards-cy-young.html#comment-94 The starting pitcher's job is to keep the opposing team from scoring runs and Carpenter did that better than anyone in the NL this year. Vazquez and Haren were 8th and 10th respectively in ERA+. Carpenter's ERA+ this year was 185! Since 1994, the only pitchers who have had a higher ERA+ (besides Greinke who did it this year) are Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux. - heyblue Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:37:38 +0100 http://www.wezen-ball.com/2009-articles/october/baseball-bloggers-alliance-awards-cy-young.html#comment-91 I see what you're saying, but I don't think Carpenter was that much better than Vazquez and Haren. His ERA was lower certainly, and he pitched brilliantly (I saw two of those gems, if I remember correctly), but he's not as clear-cut as you make him sound. Both Haren and Vazquez struck out many, many more batters and, when you look at their FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching), they come out almost evenly (2.77 for Vazquez, 2.78 for Carp and 3.23 for Haren). Haren's FIP is higher, but that's almost certainly due to his penchant for the long-ball. His WHIP and strikeout rate make up the difference in my mind. But I'm not saying I'm 100% correct. I understand your point about making a political statement, and maybe I was wrong about Haren vs. Carp, but I didn't make it for "political" reasons. When the 3/4/5 choices are all essentially even in your mind, then you have to end up introducing some subjectivity to make the decision, and that is what happened here. Maybe I should've picked Carp over Haren, but, in my mind, they were close enough for me to choose either... - lar @ wezen-ball Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:58:00 +0100 http://www.wezen-ball.com/2009-articles/october/baseball-bloggers-alliance-awards-cy-young.html#comment-90 I agree that it's a tossup between Lincecum and Carpenter for NL Cy Young, but neither Vazquez nor Haren were nearly as good as Carpenter or Wainwright this year. They both had good years, but if you're voting for them to give them "a little acknowledgment" then you're making a political statement, not casting votes for the 2nd and 3rd best pitcher in the league this year. - heyblue Tue, 20 Oct 2009 13:28:25 +0100 http://www.wezen-ball.com/2009-articles/october/baseball-bloggers-alliance-awards-cy-young.html#comment-88 I could easily put Carpenter at number 3, but I thought Haren was just as good, just more off-the-radar. I wanted to give him a little acknowledgment. Personally, I think my choices actually reflect your philosophy of "tell the statistics to shut up and actually look at who was the best." With Lincecum, Vazquez, and Haren, it's the stats that actually obscure how good they are. I've seen enough Carpenter and Lincecum starts to know that Timmy is the better pitcher (though Carpenter is terrific, too). Basically, I think the top 5 is a pretty fluid group this year, and no one's top 3 would shock me. I honestly believe Timmy deserves the Cy, but I won't be too upset if it's Carp or Haren or Vazquez (which is why I cast my "official" vote for the AL) - lar @ wezen-ball Mon, 19 Oct 2009 15:00:29 +0100 http://www.wezen-ball.com/2009-articles/october/baseball-bloggers-alliance-awards-cy-young.html#comment-87 How do neither Carpenter or Wainwright make the top 3? This might be the point where we tell the statistics to shut up and actually look at who was the best. The numbers (any of them) don't always tell the truth. - Ron R Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:46:40 +0100